Friday, April 20, 2007

Odds and Ends 9

It looks like we are all still waiting for an explanation from the folks at Bisno Development Corp. on who Mr. Bisno arrived at the figures he wrote about in last Saturday's More San Pedro Guest column. I have written to Vice President Elise Swanson of that organization asking for supporting documentation and she wrote back that her group will make the facts known to the public "in the near future".

You may be interested in reading a Guest Column in the Saturday April 21 edition of
More San Pedro responding to you know who's recent Guest Column. The guest columnist for this new piece is the same person who responded to last year's Guest Column from Bob Bisno.
Thanks you to Ms. Farr, the new editor of More San Pedro for making this special inclusion in the magazine.

Trivia Time:

In Bob Bisno's current plans for having a 575-unit Senior Housing section, the DEIR reports that the Daily Trip Generation for this section alone will be 2,001 trips per day, with 46 trips during the peak AM hour and 63 trips during the peak PM hour. Adding in the remaining 1,725 non-age restricted units would bring the daily trip generation total to about 9,212 trips per day.

By contrast, the DEIR reports that in the 429 (R1 only) alternative, there would be 4,106 daily trips generated, with 322 trips during the peak AM hour, and 433 trips during the peak PM hour.

It should be noted that all figures documented in the DEIR for trip generation have been part of the many areas questioned by some opponents of Mr. Bisno's current plans.

I certainly hope that with the new proposals for building two new public senior high schools in San Pedro, instead of just one at the Ponte Vista site, our community does not become even more divided than it already seems to be. Personally, I do not believe a school should be built in San Pedro to ease overcrowding at Narbonne H.S. as SRHS #14 is not projected to be.

I think building a 1,215-seat senior high school in the Point Fermin area of our community is also not only a poor idea, but I did find it very funny when I first heard about it from the folks at LAUSD.

With Ponte Vista, we are all still dealing with the largest residential development proposed since Playa Vista was approved in the City of Los Angeles. To have these two new schools being considered now doesn't seem fair or just that we have to also deal with these schools, too.

I hope the folks in north San Pedro don't fight for having a big school built near Point Fermin just so they can have a smaller school or no school at all in Ponte Vista. I also hope OUR community members living closer the where LAUSD now wants to build the new project, don't require that the entire community accept a 2,025-seat high school at Ponte Vista.

We all need to work together to find some kind of compromise, try and get LAUSD to look elsewhere to build a school to ease the overcrowding of Narbonne, and find the best and smallest ways to ease the overcrowding of San Pedro High School......Go Pirates!!!

Next Thursday's Advisory Committee meeting is scheduled to feature "gang" members from the Department of Transportation of the City of Los Angeles. Comedy galore might become the highlight of that meeting, IMHO.


Anonymous said...

Just read More SP! Mark, congratulations on your move away from the CAC! I believe your support to RNR1 will be significant. I can't wait for my R1 lawn sign to show up!
I also read the piece that Skip Robinson wrote. Man, I can't wait for the next CAC meeting. I'm gonna show for sure! What Skip doesn't know about San Pedro is that we are a pretty passionate town when we see people threatening the essense of what this community is. We are FAR from ranting elitists...WE KICK BUTT...Pedro Style! I'll bring the tomatos!!

Anonymous said...

So what is your point? You must be impressed with the sight of your words in print because you just write and write, without ever saying anything concrete or constructive. You fill your blog with spewing incoherent tripe and now you are spilling over to More. When will the madness end? By-the-way, aren't you one of the R Neighborhoods Are 1 steering committee members? So with your ulterior motives, why should anything you write be believed?

skip said...

Anonymous 9:40am

How typical. You are exactly the type of hooligan I was describing. You have no respect for your neighbors. They live in San Pedro too. They are passionate in their opinions also. Yet they aren't taking pride in boorish behavior.

Your comment about bring tomatoes just demonstrates your brutishness. I'll bet there are a lot of people in San Pedro who would disagree the methods you describe as "Pedro style". I'd like to believe there are still plenty of decent people in this town.

I'm glad my letter motivates you to want to come to the CAC meetings. That is what community involvement is all about and the CAC members need to hear your point of view. But, at least you will be able to express yourself without you having to talk over Neanderthals heckling you. Be careful you don't scrape your knuckles on the floor on your way up to the podium.

Skip Robinson

M Richards said...

Anonymous 11:56 AM.

I invite you to continue to be a supporter of Bob's current plans because you may just fit the type of folks who want 2,300 condos built in northwest San Pedro.

Look, you obviously have not been reading this blog too much because you completely miss my suggestions, and it looks like you miss them every single time.

It has been some time now that I have called for exclusively R1 zoning to remain at Ponte Vista.

Hey 11:56 AM, haven't you been able to understand the word "compromise" that I have been calling for these last few months?

I have stated before, and I will state it again for folks who have a hard time understanding this one little point: I have never signed the R1 petition and I will not do so unless Bob and his gang are not willing to talk about compromise. The responsibility on Bob and company is to bring to the table a compromise set of proposals that can work for our community.

I already have to deal with some R1 folks who continue to try and get me to fully support keeping the current zoning at Ponte Vista. I do not need to read from you your dissatisfaction with my position and this blog. You are most welcome to never read this blog again!

Now, 11:56 AM, what is your position on the proposed development? I have repeatedly called for a wonderful, large Senior Housing section of condominiums and Town houses being built in a guarded and gated portion of the Ponte Vista site. Do I need to put more spacing between the words for you to understand this part of my proposal?

Next, I can see single-family, detached housing at Ponte Vista because that is what Bob wrote would be at the site in the survey and previous advertisements. I know there is absolutely no mention of this type of housing in the Initial Study or the DEIR, but if Bob wrote in last week's More San Pedro that it would be there, then I think it should be there, don't you?

As to whether the single-family, detached housing would be on lots of at least 5,000 square feet in size, (hey 11:56 AM, that means R1), then I would like the majority of single-family houses to be built on these sizes of lots. I can see SOME single-family housing with R1.5 or R2 sized lots, but this get me even more in trouble with the R Neighborhoods Are 1 group.

I work with R Neighborhoods Are 1 because there are many good reasons for keeping the site with its current zoning. I also know enough of the facts about keeping the area with its current zoning AND the wishes of many seniors in our community who really want the type of Senior Housing Bob is offering, to know that I like my current proposals more than I like both Bob's proposals and R Neighborhoods Are 1's seemingly singular mission.

Now 11:56 AM, I am sorry I didn't double space this comment to make it easier for you to read.

Your attack on me is based on a lack of knowledge of this post, my wishes for OUR community and an obvious lack of understanding about Bob's current proposals and many of the real facts surrounding much of the Ponte Vista at San Pedro issue.

You are most welcome 11:56 AM, to start your own blog, for free. Google is the major sponsor of these blogs at and I would be interested with what you might come up with.

Have I been concrete or constructive in your opinion with this set of comments, 11:56 AM? If you don't think my proposal is concrete enough for you to understand, I'll try to repeat it again using larger type, more space between words, and more space between lines.

Being constructive is calling for compromise, I feel. All parties on both ends of the spectrum seem to continue to be locked into their positions and unwilling to blink. I think Bob should blink first, because he is the applicant and he needs to prosecute his position. R Neighborhoods Are 1 don't really need to defend a position because the property is already zoned the way they want to keep it, but I do wish more members of the group would also suggest compromise.

I do create long posts and comments. I am not a professional writer and I am always struggling with editing my points. Perhaps I need to continue to have long-winded posts and comments because too many folks like you, 11:56 AM, either aren't willing to learn all the facts about the issues, or you just plain do not understand.

M Richards said...

Howdy Skip,

I think your comments to 9:40 AM were appropriate when writing about the audience at the CAC meetings.

But I think you would probably have to admit that when a supporter of Bob's current plans got up and repeated these words:
"Bob Bisno is going to save San Pedro", everybody in the room had a good laugh, except of course, Linda herself.

Supporters are more quiet when it comes to reacting to comments, but Linda did make some personal attacks on two CAC members during earlier meetings, and that was very uncalled for.

We do seem to see the same folks making comments on both sides of the aisle during CAC meetings, don't we? I'll try to make my comments funnier and more constructive in the future. I did feel the need to remind everyone about Bob's "mix of single-family homes, condominiums, and townhomes..." written statements. I don't see them anymore in ads on the last page of Random Lengths News or More San Pedro. That is good.

I would like to see the CAC sponsor a debate between a supporter for Bob's current plans and someone from R Neighborhoods Are 1. I don't think I would be a debater because I am calling for compromise and that seems to be the last thing both groups seem to want at this time.

Perhaps when Pat gets back from his vacation he might want to debate with Louis Dominguez or Rachel Viramontes. The two of them seem to know a lot about Bob's current plans, so perhaps getting one person very involved with groups supporting Bob's current plans, together with someone very opposed to those plans might give the CAC and the community a presentation that may help them think more about the recommendations they need to make.

What do you think about that idea, Skip?

I had no idea what Steve Marconi was going to write about in this latest issue of More San Pedro. To have his column appear opposite my Guest Column just about floored me because Steve doesn't usually write about Ponte Vista in these last few months.

What do you all think about having an LAUSD school at Ponte Vista with 810 seats? I am against any school being built at Ponte Vista.

skip said...

Mr. Wells,

My point is that EVERYONE should have the opportunity to present their comments free from harassment or ridicule no matter what side they are on. As far as personal attacks against members of the CAC or members of the public, that is something else which the chairman needs to keep tighter control of. Opinions can be expressed without attacks.

Another offense which has been common is the ignoring of the time limit set for speakers. While it has been done by both proponents and opponents, my opinion is it tends to happen more by opponents. You are free to correct me if you have a different perception. But when you have someone say as soon as they walk up to the podiumthat they are going to take longer. Maybe they feel because they have known John for awhile, he'll bend the rules for them. Although I do have to say you and Pat Nave are very conscientious about cutting it off when time is called. I have to compliment you both for this.

A debate.... hmmmm.... Interesting concept. The only logistic snag I see is if you want to wait for Pat Nave to get back from his vacation, the CAC will be done with their meetings.Perhaps the R1 group could find someone else. In addition, I think there should actually be a team of 2 people from each side. The whole idea of the CAC is to makethe wishes of the community known. A debate would be a structured, comprehensive way to communicate those ideas to the CAC, the Planning Department, Bob Bisno and Councilwoman Hahn.

It was somewhat of a surprise to see Steve Marconi's column considering hissilence for some time now.

After reading your other entries, I tend to agree that expanding the facility on Barrywood is worth taking a good hard look at. It might upset the neighbors, but it could be done without taking any extra property. This would streamline the entire process since minimal environmental studies would be required and no zoning change. Since the school district seems to think the situation is already critical, waiting until 2012 seems pretty silly. This could be a quick fix. Ofcourse moving the site out of San Pedro altogether is the best idea. A school in the Lomita area would draw down Narbonne and also pick up any extra students generated by whatever is built in Northwest San Pedro,in addition to Lomita students. I could get behind that. I have 2 children right now, one getting ready to start at Taper, and her little brother will start next year. So this issue is of keen concern for me.

Skip Robinson

M Richards said...

Hey 11:56,
Please read Skip's last set of comments! I actually agree with what he is saying.

Skip is probably correct that opponents tend to be allowed more time that supporters. That may be because the CAC has repeatedly heard many of the supporters say basicaly the same thing Rachel Viramontes said at the first meeting at the Hotel.

I do think some of the supporters say some other things, but I think Skip might also feel that the CAC hears many of the same comments from supporters at every meeting, and even attempts by John Greenwood to explain to some supporters that the CAC is FULLY aware of the basic provisions of what many of the supportes' comments are, still we all hear the same thing (affordable housing, Senior Housing, No R1) at every single meeting. When is that "rant" going to end?

Skip is also correct that Pat probably won't be around by the time the CAC has ended its mission, if Victor, Bob, and Ms. Hahn have anything to say about it. I think we have all heard that the CAC is supposed to wrap up the work of making recommendations by June, or there abouts. It is a shame, I feel, to try to end the CAC's job more quickly than I feel should be done.

Now that LAUSD has amended its proposal and the courts have sided with them as far as gathering information on Bob's land, it makes the possibility of a 810-seat school more realistic, I think, than the 2,025-seat school was. Even though I do not want any school inside the Ponte Vista area, the CAC might have to deal with a Ponte Vista development that has probably as many as 10-12 acres, in total, taken away from Bob's current plans. What will Bob do? How might he change his vision if he loses acres to LAUSD?

As for a debate between two supporters and two opponents might be fine, but I don't know who I would pick in place of Pat. There are several folks who might know the DEIR and other source documents as well as Pat, but I don't know if they would be willing to get up for a debate.

Skip, you are going to be right smack dab in the middle of the schools issue as your children grow up. Taper is a very fine school. I would expect the boundaries for any new high school would depend if a new school were built at Ponte Vista and/or South San Pedro. I could understand sending your kids to a new school in north San Pedro. That would make transportation a dream for your family. Of course, there is already a new high school being built in north San Pedro. Might you consider Mary Star to be an option in about 10 years?

See folks, even though I believe Skip and I might disagree on what we might want to see at Ponte Vista, I think we are showing folks that we can communicate freely and openly and I think that is reasonable, responsible, realistic and respectful.

I wonder what Skip thinks about compromise proposals for the Ponte Vista site? How about it Skip? What are you thoughts about what should actually be built inside the borders of Ponte Vista?

Anonymous said...

Hey Skip, 9:40 here, did I personally attack you and your whining opinion? You don't even know me, yet you accuse me of having no respect and call me a neanderthal? YOU, my friend, are a whining baby. I would guess you just haven't grasped the fact that there are allot of folks in San Pedro that don't care for nicey nice political posturing BS and debate. We know a rat when we see one and do what it takes to get rid of it. Intimidation/a show of force/heckling is just one of many tactics that can be used to express the utter OUTRAGE over this issue that threatens our community. I have PLENTY of respect for my neighbors, I just have NO respect for stupidity. If you don't like us, then find somewhere else to live.

skip said...

Anonymous 9:40am

The more you write, the more you demonstrate what a troglodyte you are. "Intimidation/a show of force/heckling" is improper conduct for a public forum meeting in which people are entitled to express their opinions. That's the First Amendment,; sometimes you have to listen to people you don't agree with.

That's not whining. It is asking you to show some respect. Obviously something your mother never taught you. Your thinly-veiled threat that I should leave if I don't like it is laughable.

Luckily for me, I like where I live and my immediate neighbors I deal with every day are a pleasant group of people. Sorry for you, I'm not going anywhere for quite a while.

Skip Robinson

mellonhead said...

After reading More SP yesterday and then this thread I can see a lot of people are very upset at what is going on around here. Really, who knows what is actually going to be built at the former John Montgomery Naval Housing-and when. LAUSD has thrown a monkey wrench into this mess by changing their proposal. And then there's the Eastwiew Little League and the dog park. Yesterday I got a piece of junk mail from Ponte Vista telling how great 2300 units there would be and whould I please mail back the attached postcard supporting the project. Sorry Skip, but I sent it through my shredder.

skip said...

Mr. Wells,

Thank you for your considered response to my post. I'm glad you see that basically what I'm saying is the same you are with your Four Rs.

Not everyone sees things the same way, and we just might have to leave the discussion about who get more time during the public comment at the CAC meetings under the classification of "needing improvement". There is no use for us to get into a debate over something which is beyond our ability to correct.

You are correct that I'm going to be right in the middle of the entire school issue over the next years. In fact, my wife and I have already had to deal with the fact that she was raised Catholic and wanted the kids to go to parochial school. I got lucky though, given the proximity of Taper and the great reputation it has. By the time high school rolls around, Mary Star might be an option. But I think we will let the kids make a large part of that decision.

I'll need some time to look more closely at some of the things you've written, and the proposals for Ponte Vista before I feel comfortable writing down my opinion. But I think you're right, it is something I need to fine-tune and I haven't done it yet.

Skip Robinson

skip said...


Why in the world would you say "Sorry Skip, but I sent it through my shredder."? I have not expressed any burning desire to support Bisno. All that I've been saying is that we need to be more civilized during this process. After it all ends, we still have to live here in this town with each other.

Skip Robinson

Anonymous said...

Here you go again Skippy. Now you want to bring my mother into this? You want to question the way she raised me? Again, you don't know me brother, so why don't YOU try being alittle respectful? Read through the posts again and determine who was the first to get personal and disrespectful. It was YOU Skippy. So quit your pansy whining and voice your opinion at the CAC and just ignore the "intimidation" and move on. Just don't forget to bring your binky...whiner.
And by the threat behind my suggestion of you finding somewhere else to live. It's just that if you find the SP attitude alittle too much for you to handle, then leave. Nobody will miss you.

skip said...

Anonymous 9:40am

You really are going over the line.

I am not your brother, I am not your friend, and my name is Skip, not Skippy.

I don't need to have met you, or your mother, or seen the way you were raised. It is very obvious in the way you act. When the shoe fits, wear it.

What in the world do you think "...just one of many tactics that can be used ..." implies? It isn't hard to figure out. If your intimidation and threats don't work you call up a bunch of other goons and thugs to meet me with pick-axe handles.

I feel sorry for you. It must be tough having so much pent-up frustration the only way you know how to express it is through intimidaion and threats of violence.

Skip Robinson

Anonymous said...

Relax Skippy. No threats of violence were ever made. You are paranoid dude. The boundry of personal disrespect was crossed by you, and I am responding to your whining. Why don't you practice what you preach Skippy.

M Richards said...

Howdy Anonymous, Mellonhead, and Skip,

I think by reading some of the nine comments left since Saturday night, Ponte Vista is still a very emotional topic. I do understand that it is and I have had my share of emotional outbursts with folks about issues concernint Ponte Vista.

It is hard sometimes, I thing to remove the emotional responses from the logical responses we all should be working towards having.

At the last CAC meeting, there were many more opponents to Bob's current plan in the audience, than there were supporters. This is definitely out of the norm for the vast majority of CAC meetings.

I think all of us were VERY surprised at the turnout with under 24 hours notice from the steering committee meeting on Wednesday night to the Thursday night meeting.

It is absolutely true that many opponents of Bob's current plans made their first appearance at that meeting, unlike the supporters who regularly turn out. I can imagine that Thursday's meeting will include a very high number of supporters just to show opponents that they can draw a crowd better than opponents can. I do respect the number of supporters who turn out and I have always been puzzled as to why so many opponents stay away from the meetings.

Skip was correct in his letter to the editor in Saturday's More San Pedro, that sometimes opponents can be heard not being the best audience. What CAC members also can hear at times are the snide remarks coming from some of the regular supporters during the meetings and the outright personal attacks one or two supporters choose to make to individuals on the CAC.

There is still a lot of work to be done by all of us concerning what may or may not be built at Ponte Vista. The new proposal for only 810-seats at a new high school does fall within some of the comments Bob has made about what he would be willing to talk about concerning having a new school built at Ponte Vista.

Land swaps are now out there, if you can imagine Bob swapping acreage for a high school for land near Barrywood and Taper, LAUSD now owns. A mitigation proposal could be that Bob and LAUSD would swap acreage, LAUSD would get their 810-seat high school at Ponte Vista and San Pedro would get new baseball fields for use by the public and Eastview Little League AND perhaps a new public library.

I don't personally like the idea much, but I wonder what the community might think about that kind of compromise.

It has also become more apparent that the forces that be in the City of L.A. want the CAC's mission done sooner than I think it should be. With the new school proposals, it may be necessary to think what Bob might want to do and whether R Neighborhoods Are 1 would consider compromise ONCE Bob issues some kind of compromise proposal.

I hope we can try better to let our emotions be more controlled and our logic brought more forward. But I falter in this task just like just about everyone does. None of us should let our emotions and anger get ahead of clear thinking and being reasonable and respectful.

I'll try to be better at CAC meetings. This last one was my first where I could issue opinions as a member of the public and not as a member of the CAC.

I hope to meet all of you at the next CAC meeting where I think the comedy team from the Departmemt of Transportation will give us a pretty funny show. Expect a real song and dance show as they try to wiggle out of real facts and the numbers they are producing. There could even be a dog and pony show between the Departments of Transportation and City Planning.

And it will all be free entertainment, complete with free refreshments!

Anonymous said...

Okay well maybe I should explain my position better. There are two sides to this arguement...those who support Bisno and his current 2300 home proposal and those who support leaving the current R1 zoning alone. That's it. To my knowlege there is no plan for compromise on the table and Bisno is not asking for one. So I just don't understand anyone, at this point, calling for compromise especially if you oppose Bisno's 2300 homes. You are taking a position of weakness against a true shark. Thus I currently support a position of strength by not budging from the current zoning of R1. And yes, whether people like to admit it or not, showing large numbers, intimidation, heckling, getting loud, showing more emotion than the opponent IS a tactic used in many negotiation situations. The bottom line is results. Those who sit quiet and take a meek approach will probably not be "heard". The politicians remember and hear the loud ones and especially when they come in large numbers. That's life in politics and negotiation folks. And I know San Pedro can be loud when they really want to be heard. This can all be done without violence of course.

M Richards said...

Howdy Anonymous 7:47 PM,
You are basically correct in everything you write in your comment, but I have acknowledged that I am the oddball on the steering committee, because I don't necessarily agree with the premise that Ponte Vista must have all of the residential lots remaining with their current zoning.

R Neighborhoods Are 1 have taken the position they have and I think they are much, much closer to being in line with what I would like to see at Ponte Vista. That group and all the folks who have signed the R1 petition need to stand strong, and together to demand that the site remain with its current zoning, as long as Bob is not willing to create a proposal that calls for fewer than 2,300 condos. Bob needs to blink first and he should do it sooner rather than later, IMHO.

I believe my position may have some strength in that, compromise should be used in the final disposition for the project, unless Bob contines to call for what he continues to call for.

I am asking for what I believe to be the least amount of compromise for the most amount of mitigation.

I do not have any vote any longer and I know I am in the minority of folks publically stating their opinions. I get attacked on by both sides of the argument and that is perfectly fine with me. It is in the debates I have with folks on either end of the spectrum that can lead to education. With education, perhaps OUR community can find some middle ground we all can agree on.

Bob MUST change his current proposals and stop his endless advertisements, proclamations, surveys, and practices that continues his current proposals.

I can call for compromise and everyone else can demand R1 until the cows come home, but we should not budge from our beliefs untill Bob moves. IF Bob chooses not to move away from his unreasonable, unrealistic, irresponsible, and disrespectful stances with his current proposals, I would most certainly welcome visiting anyone living in a 429-unit Ponte Vista development.

R1 is more of a position of strenght than my position. I firmly believe now, more than ever, that the R1 position will only gain in strength and can actually overwhelm both the supporters of Bob's and even folks who wish for compromise. That is not going to be the end of the world for me, if that happens.

Originally I did call for keeping the site with its current zoning. It is not a bad idea if you are willing to consider the consequences to OUR community for having that stance. If R1 remains on all residential lots at Ponte Vista, there would be no public road built to Mary Star. There would be no public park of any size, Bob wouln't fund a signal at Peninsula Verde Drive and Western, and any other mitigation proposals would have to be fully paid by the taxpayers.

My position is that I would like to see a zoning change for a portion of the site to allow for a Senior Housing section, complete with gates and guards. I believe that the remainder of the residential zoned lots should be exclusively for single-family, detached housing, with the majority of those houses being on R1 sized lots.

I need to remain in the minority of folks interested in what should be built at Ponte Vista. There needs to be a very strong opposition to Bob's current plans and as just about everyone has seen recently, there is now such a group and it is growing faster than just about anyone could have imagined.

Please Anonymoun 7:47 PM, keep up your great position. I will keep calling for what I would like to see and we will all wait for Bob to either blink or just go away.

Just think how much pressure LAUSD was under and how powerful they think they are. Gone is the call for a 2,025-seat senior high school at Ponte Vista. If we could get LAUSD to blink, how hard will it actually be to get Bob to blink or give up?

Anonymous said...

Your right, I want to see him blink too. Right now he is holding those cards tight. I sure hope the R1 movement continues to grow. Numbers are everything. I will be sure to show up Thursday. Make alittle the most respectful manner of course!